I really have to stop reading game threads and draft threads on BBI, because they are so full of stupid that they make my head hurt.
Listen, you armchair draft prognosticators. Just because Kiper or whatever other media shithead had projected this guy going lower does not mean that we reached, does not mean that this was a need pick, and does not mean that this was a bad decision. Jerry Reese and the Giants scouting department have forgotten more about football in general, and about Pugh in particular, than the media turds (or you) will ever know.
So get this straight: the Giants draft board is not lifted from Great Blue North or from ESPN. It's based on their own grading system and their own direct observation. So STFU already with the "reach" and "need" comments. You have no idea what you're talking about and should just be quiet and wait for training camp like good little boys.
The Giants drafted this player who had been mentioned quite a bit on BBI but was expected to go well into the later rounds. I figured 'stupid Giants, could've drafted him lower and picked a better player there'.
The player was Osi Umenyiora - and he greatly outperformed his draft slot.
The assumption that somehow value is derived by where someone is picked versus where the consensus says he should be picked just isn't valid. For starters, we don't know what other teams are thinking about the guy. For all we know, the Giants had him ranked high and they knew another team (or teams) were interested in him.
Without the benefit of seeing their board or that of surrounding teams, it's a pointless argument. You can critique the player all you want, but you can't bash the Giants on 'value' when they're selecting an offensive tackle in the first round and those guys tend to go high.
I don't watch Syracuse, so never really seen him, other than the same highlights everyone else has seen. I think the arm length issue is stupid and pointless - one inch is nothing.
... but that being the case, is it really a reach? Maybe in an ideal world Pugh is not a first-round talent, but there was a run on O-linemen, and I don't think he would have been available much later. It's the kind of thing that happens when you have a need: market rules apply.
My ideal pick was Warmack or Cooper, because I wanted an interior lineman who could eventually be the long-time solution at center. Seems like Pugh might be the slightly-less-talented version.
Baas is on the team and almost certainly locked into starting, barring injury, for at least the next two seasons thanks to his restructuring and the Giants' overall cap situation/needs going forward and you don't draft a guy you profile as a maybe center at #19 overall three years before you'd need him, under the current rookie pay scale.
It was surprising. I would guessed that T.E. would be our guy when we were on the clock. This pick was surprising because I didn't really consider this guy. I figured Fluker would drop. However, once there was a big run on OL, I figured a DT would be our pick. DE was another thing. The fact it was this guy and OL player was surprising. I figured T.E. would be rated up there and would be our pick.
At the end of the day, nobody is going to give a single crap
is much better than we give him credit for. I think the short arm thing really dropped the hype on him. But when you watch the tape, he has excellent feet and rarely gets beat.
He may not dominate anyone but he seems great at getting to the second level too. I think he's a great system fit for us at our greatest position of need.
It's not 'sexy' but it is probably the one pick that improves our team the most next year.
Just because I think it was a reach doesn't mean I think Pugh will be a bad player. On the contrary, I think he'll be a very good player. I also think that if you really like a guy (and unless the Giants are blowing huge amounts of smoke, they really did like him...a lot) you go and get him when you have the chance. As I wrote in another thread, if they didn't draft him at 19, the odds are they wouldn't have gotten him at all.
With the pick at 1st, with a loud WTF?!, with Floyd, Werner, Considine amongst others still there. But, I see what the Cowboys did & smile knowing JJ is their GM for life.
Now that the dust has settled, I guess JR & crew were high on Pugh & figured he'd be gone later.
The Dallas Cowboys were interested in selecting New York Giants OL Justin Pugh, and thought he would be on the board when they traded down from the 18th overall draft pick to the 31st overall draft pick.
shouldn't we be put off by the fact that Dallas wanted him?
This is a safe pick, low bust potential, I don't know if he'll become a great player though. The only way to judge this pick is to follow Rhodes, Floyd, and Eifert and see if they become Pro Bowlers down the road.
Because the Giants and perhaps 2 other teams were interested in Pugh, you've found a way to discredit his abilities with some serious reaches.
How about this? The Giants wanted him there and they know a ton more than we do. So instead of trying to figure out why they don't think more like you perhaps you can figure out what you're missing or at least accept that you have a fraction of the data that they do?
Just saying that the Giants don't necessarily know more
than every other team, that's all. If you insist that the Giants know best, and the rest of the football world knows crap, then you can't use the fact that Dallas and Chicago wanted him to support your case for selecting Pugh either.
I think he'll be good, and definitely safe, it's the fact that they picked the 6th or 7th best OL in the middle of the first round that kinda surprised me...
Why is judging him against whether other guys make Pro Bowls or not the determining factor. If he plays 10 years for the Giants and they have no worries while he is there, but he makes no Pro Bowls, how is that not a success.
By that logic we should've drafted Bradshaw #1, I thought drafting was
about getting good players relative to their draft position.
I've finally gotten over the whiplash I suffered from watching defenders blow past Diehl last year, so I can't wait for Pugh to solidify the line for us. And during the past few years I've been upset with Reese's decisions to pick the BPA like Jernigan, Barden, and Randle when we are already pretty stacked at WR. Having said that, if Floyd turns out to be a disruptive interior DL that we could've used and Pugh turns out to be a Seubert or O'Hara, then yes, then Reese would've made a mistake.
Why would you judge our player against the careers of Rhodes
I think some people have turned the draft into a contest. We aren't trying to win the draft.
We're trying to do what helps us win games. If Pugh solidifies the line and had a 9 year career it's a good pick no matter what Xavier Rhodes does in his NFL life.
David Wilson was a good pick last year despite the fact that Doug Martin had a more productive rookie year.
prince Amukamara was a good pick despite the fact the defense has been terrible both years he's been here.
and I think last season was proof enough we are certainly not
To me, spending the 19th pick of the draft to get a solid to very good RT is a waste. You can find solid to very good RTs just about anywhere in the draft.
Obviously, the Giants felt otherwise. They really liked this kid, they didn't want to risk losing him if they traded down in the 1st or waited until the 2nd to see if he'd fall to them, so they took him at 19.
None of those guys were drafted earlier than the 4th round (and the jury is still out on Mosley, because he got IRed in camp). However...maybe "anywhere in the draft" was a bit of hyperbole on my part, but if I'd said "2nd or 3rd round" would you agree with that?
Also, the Giants have had great success with Seubert (UDFA), O'Hara (UDFA, via FA), K-Mac (3rd round pick, via FA), Diehl (5th round pick), and Boothe (6th round pick, via FA) so it's not like their track record on "coaching 'em up" is all bad.
True, but most of those guys they developed into really good players
came from other teams. McKenzie, Boothe, and O'Hara weren't scouted and drafted here.
Seubert and Diehl were, and those were under a different GM making the final decisions.
What I mean is they're not having recent luck with the guys they're scouting and drafting and developing. It pushed them into a situation where they needed to pick a player that's closer to NFL ready and doesn't need to sit on the bench for two years.
Even Brewer, it's been three years already and he can still barely get off the bench.
They needed someone to go now. Maybe you CAN find good OL talents later in the draft, but it's becoming a pattern where you can say the Giants aren't particularly good at it.
I would have liked them to explore the shallow end a litte more, though, but what's done is done. They got the kid they wanted. I hope he lives up to his billing.
Listen, you armchair draft prognosticators. Just because Kiper or whatever other media shithead had projected this guy going lower does not mean that we reached, does not mean that this was a need pick, and does not mean that this was a bad decision. Jerry Reese and the Giants scouting department have forgotten more about football in general, and about Pugh in particular, than the media turds (or you) will ever know.
So get this straight: the Giants draft board is not lifted from Great Blue North or from ESPN. It's based on their own grading system and their own direct observation. So STFU already with the "reach" and "need" comments. You have no idea what you're talking about and should just be quiet and wait for training camp like good little boys.
The player was Osi Umenyiora - and he greatly outperformed his draft slot.
The assumption that somehow value is derived by where someone is picked versus where the consensus says he should be picked just isn't valid. For starters, we don't know what other teams are thinking about the guy. For all we know, the Giants had him ranked high and they knew another team (or teams) were interested in him.
Without the benefit of seeing their board or that of surrounding teams, it's a pointless argument. You can critique the player all you want, but you can't bash the Giants on 'value' when they're selecting an offensive tackle in the first round and those guys tend to go high.
Link - ( New Window )
My ideal pick was Warmack or Cooper, because I wanted an interior lineman who could eventually be the long-time solution at center. Seems like Pugh might be the slightly-less-talented version.
No one is going to care where he was drafted as long as he's good.
He may not dominate anyone but he seems great at getting to the second level too. I think he's a great system fit for us at our greatest position of need.
It's not 'sexy' but it is probably the one pick that improves our team the most next year.
Now that the dust has settled, I guess JR & crew were high on Pugh & figured he'd be gone later.
Fri, 26 Apr 2013 11:23:29 -0700
The Dallas Cowboys were interested in selecting New York Giants OL Justin Pugh, and thought he would be on the board when they traded down from the 18th overall draft pick to the 31st overall draft pick.
Read more: http://www.kffl.com/hotw/NFL?page=1#ixzz2RbgHrMV4
This is a safe pick, low bust potential, I don't know if he'll become a great player though. The only way to judge this pick is to follow Rhodes, Floyd, and Eifert and see if they become Pro Bowlers down the road.
How about this? The Giants wanted him there and they know a ton more than we do. So instead of trying to figure out why they don't think more like you perhaps you can figure out what you're missing or at least accept that you have a fraction of the data that they do?
I think he'll be good, and definitely safe, it's the fact that they picked the 6th or 7th best OL in the middle of the first round that kinda surprised me...
I've finally gotten over the whiplash I suffered from watching defenders blow past Diehl last year, so I can't wait for Pugh to solidify the line for us. And during the past few years I've been upset with Reese's decisions to pick the BPA like Jernigan, Barden, and Randle when we are already pretty stacked at WR. Having said that, if Floyd turns out to be a disruptive interior DL that we could've used and Pugh turns out to be a Seubert or O'Hara, then yes, then Reese would've made a mistake.
I think some people have turned the draft into a contest. We aren't trying to win the draft.
We're trying to do what helps us win games. If Pugh solidifies the line and had a 9 year career it's a good pick no matter what Xavier Rhodes does in his NFL life.
David Wilson was a good pick last year despite the fact that Doug Martin had a more productive rookie year.
prince Amukamara was a good pick despite the fact the defense has been terrible both years he's been here.
Who are the guys that stepped up last year when plays needed to be made in absence of Nicks?
Barden and Jernigan demonstrated nothing and could do nothing to be a meaningful complement to Cruz when defenses were keying on him.
If he does, and I see no reason to doubt that he will, I do not understand the hate for the pick.
Obviously, the Giants felt otherwise. They really liked this kid, they didn't want to risk losing him if they traded down in the 1st or waited until the 2nd to see if he'd fall to them, so they took him at 19.
I hope he turns into something really special.
Koets, Petrus, King, Brewer, Mosely.
How many of those guys have contributed anything?
They got nothing. now they really need OL talent. they couldn't keep doing the same thing over and over.
Also, the Giants have had great success with Seubert (UDFA), O'Hara (UDFA, via FA), K-Mac (3rd round pick, via FA), Diehl (5th round pick), and Boothe (6th round pick, via FA) so it's not like their track record on "coaching 'em up" is all bad.
Seubert and Diehl were, and those were under a different GM making the final decisions.
What I mean is they're not having recent luck with the guys they're scouting and drafting and developing. It pushed them into a situation where they needed to pick a player that's closer to NFL ready and doesn't need to sit on the bench for two years.
Even Brewer, it's been three years already and he can still barely get off the bench.
They needed someone to go now. Maybe you CAN find good OL talents later in the draft, but it's becoming a pattern where you can say the Giants aren't particularly good at it.
But as far as THIS franchise, it doesn't appear to be a skill to dive into the deep end of the draft and get a contributor at OL past the first day.